Something new this episode: our first video podcast is up at YouTube. You can also listen as always on any podcast app.
If you like the video version, please give it a thumbs up and/or click to subscribe.
The format’s different this time too: more of a conversation than an interview, with two of my favorite people from the worlds of politics and communications, Kevin Lewis and Zach Friend.
Kevin was the post-presidency spokesman for former President Barack Obama. During the Obama administration he served at the White House and at the Department of Justice, where he advised Attorneys General Eric Holder and Loretta Lynch. He’s also worked for the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee and both Obama campaigns.
Zach has worked for the White House Council of Economic Advisers, the U.S. Senate, the House of Representatives, and both Obama campaigns as well. He’s currently serving in local government as an elected Supervisor in Santa Cruz County, California.
In our conversation, Kevin, Zach, and I look at what we can learn about leadership from the negative examples provided by people like Kevin McCarthy, or Matt Gaetz, and much better examples provided by people like Hakeem Jeffries, and Nancy Pelosi, and what they can teach some other Democrats. One big lesson: it turns out character matters.
— Spencer
Transcript
00:00:03:05 – 00:00:06:14
Spencer
Welcome to Dastardly Cleverness in the Service of Good. I’m Spencer Critchley.
00:00:06:26 – 00:00:07:27
Kevin
Hi, I’m Kevin Lewis.
00:00:08:08 – 00:00:09:10
Zach
And I’m Zach Friend.
00:00:09:16 – 00:00:30:09
Spencer
Good to see you guys, as always. As we talk today, the House Speaker’s chair has been vacated for the first time in history. Many people would say it’s been vacant since about February when Kevin McCarthy first sat down in it. And I think that if Kevin McCarthy has offered us nothing else, he’s offered us some kind of lessons in leadership.
00:00:30:10 – 00:00:33:15
Spencer
I wonder what we think about that as a group. Kevin, how does it look to you?
00:00:33:28 – 00:01:02:29
Kevin
Well, you know, I think it’s really important, especially in in politics and and national politics, that you learn how to negotiate, communicate and compromise. And when we’re talking about the well-being of the American people on the line, you really can’t negotiate with folks who don’t really want to do do what’s right and do what’s necessary. You also can’t really lead with a knife at your throat.
00:01:03:03 – 00:01:19:15
Kevin
And if you need 15 different votes to get elected to do anything, I think he probably should. That was already the red flag, kind of in 15 votes to get elected and just one to get booted. So I don’t know. I think that that that definitely put a damper on his style.
00:01:19:16 – 00:01:24:14
Spencer
Yeah, I think that’s a that’s a pretty good phrase. 15 to get elected, one to get bullied. Zac, how about you?
00:01:25:05 – 00:01:47:17
Zach
I think that the broader question here is whether the House is governing red and whether the Republican Party actually can govern. I mean, irrespective of whether it’s Kevin McCarthy or any of the other players that are now currently seeking the post, I think to Kevin’s point, the deals with the devil that you have to make are going to come to roost at some point.
00:01:47:17 – 00:02:09:11
Zach
And the question is ultimately, ostensibly, they’re there to govern. And it doesn’t seem as though it’s maybe a governor bill path at all. I mean, if a lot of this is kind of junior high ish, right, there’s a lot of infighting that seems to be personality driven. And it could be a little bit about our media ecosystem that rewards this kind of behavior more than it actually rewards.
00:02:09:11 – 00:02:35:21
Zach
Policy wins. But from a country and a democracy perspective, which I think is the more important or broader question, whether it was former Speaker McCarthy or any other player within the Republican Party, the question is really, can they actually govern? Can they actually do they want to govern? Is creating the chaos. Part of the plan is getting the country to be so dissatisfied with our elected leaders.
00:02:35:21 – 00:02:49:08
Zach
Part of a plan of success. From an electoral standpoint, I don’t really know. But I can tell you this they are succeeding more at chaos than they are a governing. And it’s unclear what the path is moving forward from them from a democracy standpoint.
00:02:50:07 – 00:03:13:21
Spencer
I think that’s you know, it’s actually a real possibility. And I think that amongst some of the extremist, at least and let’s remember, the extremists are running the party, whether it’s the the clown caucus in the House or the fact that the head of the party is actively trying to overthrow democracy. I think that’s actually a legitimate question that, you know, the chaos may be the point.
00:03:13:21 – 00:03:35:19
Spencer
The point is to prove that government just does not work. And so it’s a win. You know, the worse it looks for some of the most extreme people, it’s a win. And how about the contrast between Kevin McCarthy as House leader and Hakeem Jeffries in his brief tenure, or Nancy Pelosi, for that matter?
00:03:36:01 – 00:04:01:06
Kevin
So, I mean, we’re seeing this play out right before our eyes and live. I think you see you saw Hakeem Jeffries gather his caucus, get everyone on the same page. Everyone’s marching from the you know, using the same playbook. And they didn’t divert. And I think that’s what you see in real leadership. And I think the way that you do that is you build trust.
00:04:01:24 – 00:04:21:26
Kevin
You set a vision and you set a plan. And I think that Democrats saw that Hakeem Jeffries was the real deal from day one. And he’s a tough guy. You know, he’s from Brooklyn. From Brooklyn. So I’m a little partial, but I think that he was able to really galvanize, you know, the troops and have everyone just stick stick with the plan.
00:04:22:11 – 00:04:48:03
Kevin
And right now, what you’re seeing and with Republicans is just you know, they just can’t they they have to like the, you know, the third highest ranking position in the entire country. You know, you can complain about Joe Biden. They can complain about, you know, Vice President Kamala Harris. They have an extremely powerful position and they couldn’t do anything.
00:04:48:03 – 00:05:12:05
Kevin
And I witnessed this and I experienced this back in my Obama Obama years when I was working in the White House. They are really good at being against something. They can fire up their base against something. They create these boogeymen and they create these villains. A lot of times a lot of the folks who they’re talking to don’t even know where these places are.
00:05:12:05 – 00:05:29:16
Kevin
When you think about Benghazi and all the other villains that different members of the president’s cabinet. They don’t even know them. They just know that they’re not supposed to like them. And they realize like, hey, we don’t need to be for anything. We can just be against something. And that’s where they thrived over and over and over again.
00:05:29:25 – 00:05:37:24
Kevin
But that’s not how anyone thrives. That’s not how the country is going to thrive. You need to stand for something. You need to have a vision. And they just they just seem to like that.
00:05:38:10 – 00:05:58:07
Spencer
Yeah, I think there’s a couple of things there. I mean, I agree about Hakeem Jeffries. I just think he’s been so impressive right from the beginning that, you know, not not just knowing his job, but just projecting leadership, which is something that Democrats, I think have been generally bad at it in the past with exceptions like Obama, for example, is a really notable exception.
00:05:59:23 – 00:06:00:18
Spencer
Zach, what do you think?
00:06:01:09 – 00:06:42:06
Zach
Well, I’ll ask I’ll answer your question with a question like a real communications professional. Spencer And so my question for you is, do you think the Democrats did the right thing by voting in mass and block to boot the speaker? Because in some respects what you’re seeing is that to Kevin’s point here, I mean, Hakeem showed that he can as disparate in many respects as the Republican caucus from an ideological standpoint, but yet was able to align in complete alignment, which to me shows that they could govern if they were given the power of governing in as far as the House goes in a unified way.
00:06:42:07 – 00:06:47:08
Zach
But Spencer, what are your thoughts on whether that was the right decision for Democrats to be unified?
00:06:47:08 – 00:07:10:12
Spencer
And I think it was the right decision. You know, leading into it, frankly. I was wondering, are they going to do some, you know, voting present and bail out Kevin McCarthy? And I was actually really glad to see that. Nope. You know, Hakeem Jeffries, Nancy Pelosi and others just said no, you know, and not just to be spiteful or to stick it to him, but to just recognize the reality.
00:07:11:14 – 00:07:40:13
Spencer
Another thing that Democrats have fallen victim to all too often, and I was worried they were going to do it this time is to be so unused to the idea of just straightforwardly standing up and fighting for what you believe in and for what’s right. Aside from whatever your partizan position is, just too many Democrats have just lost the, I think, direct personal experience of what it feels like to do that, but obviously not Hakeem Jeffries.
00:07:40:22 – 00:08:09:18
Spencer
And the point being here, Kevin McCarthy is not better than Matt Gaetz in terms of having any kind of principle, any kind of trustworthiness. They’re just two different varieties of the same thing. And as has been pointed out, you know, McCarthy with that incredible betrayal of democracy right after January 6th, where, first of all, he stands up against the attempt to overthrow our government, because obviously he felt like that’s the way the political winds were blowing at that moment.
00:08:09:18 – 00:08:30:05
Spencer
And then the moment that felt a little hot down he goes tomorrow, Lago, to beg forgiveness. So, yeah, I think that was the right decision. And, you know, as I like to talk about this aspect, too, because I think the three of us, you know, with our experience and communications from various perspectives, can talk about this in a way that maybe some other folks might not be familiar with.
00:08:30:27 – 00:09:02:17
Spencer
But what makes somebody like a Hakeem Jeffries or a Nancy Pelosi a strong leader is not that they have got some complicated leadership formula or, you know, some special kind of expertise is it’s more about understanding how to use and project power and authority. And a lot of that is nonverbal. So a lot of what makes Hakeem Jeffries powerful, I’m sure, is, you know, there’s all kinds of detailed discussions going on behind the scenes that we don’t get to see.
00:09:02:17 – 00:09:19:06
Spencer
But a lot of what makes him powerful as a leader as far as the public does see is it comes down to things like the way he stands and looks at the camera and the tone of his voice when he’s delivering a message. And you can just tell this guy is confident, he knows what he stands for and he means business.
00:09:19:06 – 00:09:29:22
Spencer
And that’s something Democrats have been slow to learn. But I think some of them, like Hakeem Jeffries, have learned that lesson. But I’d love to hear the perspectives of both of you from that point of view.
00:09:30:19 – 00:09:59:12
Kevin
Spencer, I want to take a take a step back before I get into that question, because something else that’s very important when it comes to leadership is a transition of power. And I remember, you know, closing out the Obama administration. A lot of Democrats wanted President Obama to be more present. And I remember talking to him and him saying that, you know, he needed to take a step back in order to create the space for other leaders to step in and do the job.
00:09:59:27 – 00:10:19:19
Kevin
Because if everyone’s looking to him to lead, when especially when he’s no longer a leader of the country and no longer president of the country, that will cause a lot of confusion and it’ll it’ll prevent the next leader from from being able to step it or lead us from being able to step in. So he takes a step back.
00:10:19:24 – 00:10:47:11
Kevin
Nancy Pelosi is there at that point. You know, present President Trump was was just elected and he’s coming in and wow, what an immense challenge that was for for Nancy Pelosi to to lead the Democrats and lead the country, because really, the White House wasn’t really leading the country. They won the election, but they lacked in leadership. And she stepped in.
00:10:47:17 – 00:11:11:12
Kevin
And she also, you know, put a date on herself and said, hey, you know, it is time for some young blood and fresh ideas and fresh starts within the party to step in. And I’m going to step down at the appropriate time. And she held to it. Hakeem Jeffries stepped in and meant again at a very difficult time, and he’s showing immense leadership.
00:11:11:26 – 00:11:35:22
Kevin
Yeah, it’s about how he presents himself and what he says. But it’s also a transition of power between individuals who have like, ideologies but not holding on to power for so long where you’re not investing in that next generation. I think that’s so important. And I thought we saw a Democrat. We’re seeing Democrats do that in a very powerful way.
00:11:35:29 – 00:12:17:10
Zach
Very powerful point that you’re raising. And and maybe the subtext of that is the contrast that we saw within the Republican Party. Right? There is no transfer of power within the House. There is no transfer of power within the leadership post the Trump presidency. So to my earlier point or question about whether it’s governable, I mean, do you feel that the Republican Party, under its current construct, can have this sense of a peaceful transfer even within itself, which I think is a predicate to being able to do it on a broader side in a democracy side, which is a question that I know that Spencer is constantly asking on this podcast.
00:12:17:10 – 00:12:39:09
Zach
But I mean, it’s to me, are we in a situation where all of the incentives for one of the political parties are such that make it that governance and transfer of power and fundamental precepts of American democracy are not rewarded, I’m going to say valued because different people have different values or how they perceive the situation, but they’re not rewarded.
00:12:39:09 – 00:12:43:05
Zach
I mean, is that is that what you are observing?
00:12:43:05 – 00:13:08:12
Kevin
I think what I’m seeing, what I’m experiencing, I think, you know, what the country is experiencing is a lack of political courage. And it’s something that I’ve seen creep up time and time again where someone needs to do the right thing and they’re more concerned with keeping their job. And, you know, right thing is relative. You know, where I would give I mean, I don’t know.
00:13:08:12 – 00:13:27:01
Kevin
Do I need to give Kevin McCarthy credit for not wanting the country to default on its bills? Like I thought about that just was like, well, I want to give them credit for at least keeping the country open and keeping government open and making sure that we pay our bills. That’s the that’s the least of it. I have a mortgage.
00:13:27:01 – 00:13:54:01
Kevin
I pay my bills. Wow. Pat on the back like that’s what you’re supposed to do, right? Real leadership is taking us further. We’re still stuck with these old things. And they need to they need to really, you know, let me. That’s it. I’m going down a rabbit hole to answer your question or whether I think it’s governable. I think in the current state of the Republican Party, I really don’t see a path for them.
00:13:54:01 – 00:14:25:13
Kevin
And I’m pretty down the middle. I try to see, you know, the perspective from the other side when I can. And it it’s really hard when you’re telling me that, hey, I need to negotiate between, you know, feeding starving families and paying our bills and that’s what you want to that’s what you want to cut. I don’t know how that makes any sense, especially if, you know, several folks on the far right want to say, you know, when to want to talk about, you know, Christian values.
00:14:25:13 – 00:14:53:01
Kevin
And we’re talking about, you know, immigration folks at the border. All these things are things that Christians would care about. I’m a Christian. I care about these things. I wanna you know, and it just I just find it really and it shouldn’t matter whether you’re Christian or not. These are just basic human things that you should care about and wanting to make sure that folks have the right to a great education, you know, and not rewriting history.
00:14:53:01 – 00:14:55:11
Kevin
It’s not. Anyways, I am going down there.
00:14:55:19 – 00:14:56:27
Spencer
No, I think it’s your position.
00:14:56:28 – 00:15:00:10
Kevin
I don’t think it’s tenable. And I’m going to get Spencer in here, too.
00:15:00:18 – 00:15:36:26
Spencer
No, no, I don’t think it’s a rabbit hole. I actually wanted to talk about the moral dimension of this because I think it’s another area that in politics people don’t talk about enough and people don’t know how to talk about it, especially if they’re that you’re sort of typical kind of, you know, liberal elites, the sort of college educated liberals are extremely uncomfortable talking about things like Christianity or and more more any kind of moral code for fear of, you know, violating the First Amendment or sometimes, frankly, I actually think it’s for fear of not looking cool because it’s not cool to be religious in some circles.
00:15:37:06 – 00:16:06:09
Spencer
And I think that obviously Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism, frankly, share common moral values when it comes down to do we think that children should suffer? And the answer is no. Do we think kindness is better than cruelty? And the answer is yes. Do we think honesty is better than lying? And the answer is yes. And that’s true in all cultures around the world.
00:16:07:08 – 00:16:33:07
Spencer
And one of the signs of being a savvy journalist or a savvy commentator, unfortunately, is thinking all of that is beneath you in some sense, that it’s sentimental. You know, because you’ve been to college, you understand concepts like moral relativism, you know, and you understand the problems that arise when anybody tries to impose their moral code on other people.
00:16:33:21 – 00:17:08:15
Spencer
But the fact is, in my in my view, democracy remains, at bottom a moral enterprise because we agree that everybody has equal rights. We believe in freedom, we believe in the rule of law, we believe in democratic self-government. We believe in resolving differences nonviolently. Those we can’t logically prove that those are the correct ways to think ultimately. But we start out by agreeing that, you know, we agree that those are going to be bedrock values.
00:17:08:15 – 00:17:30:02
Spencer
So you can be a member of any religion you like. You can be a member of no religion. You’ve got huge freedom to do and think and say what you want until you use violence to resolve your disputes or until you’re flagrantly lying and acting in bad faith. And those are where you know, those are the places where we draw the line.
00:17:30:13 – 00:17:51:22
Spencer
So I actually would like to pursue that rabbit hole a little bit more because, Kevin, one of the lessons from Kevin McCarthy is that his obvious lack of principles, you know, I’m sure he thinks it’s smart and there are a lot of people who think, Oh, look how clever we are and look at what Donald Trump is getting away with, which seems to prove the case for the cynic, right?
00:17:51:22 – 00:18:22:17
Spencer
That nothing matters lol. As as you know, people will actually say these days, you know, some folks in the consulting class will actually say nothing matters lol. And yet, you know, it’s like the Greeks used to say character is destiny. At a certain point it does catch up with you. And when you see a Hakeem Jeffries or a Nancy Pelosi, I have no doubt these are I don’t know either of them personally, but I have no doubt they are very sophisticated political operatives and at the same time, I have no doubt they actually stand for things.
00:18:22:29 – 00:18:41:01
Spencer
And that’s not just the morally right way to go. In my view. It’s the smart way to go. It might take a while, but in the in the long run, it ends up working better like it did for Obama, for example. And like I think, frankly, it works for Joe Biden. He he actually does stand for some stuff and it actually ends up making a difference.
00:18:41:01 – 00:18:53:18
Spencer
So. So, Zach, what do you what do you think about that as as an elected official who has to deal with the realities of politics on the ground day after day? Does that make your eyes roll or do or do you think it’s true?
00:18:54:18 – 00:18:57:07
Zach
Well, I’m too old to know what owl means, I’ll tell you that.
00:18:57:27 – 00:19:01:15
Spencer
Oh, man, I thought I was. I thought I was as I thought I was keeping up.
00:19:01:15 – 00:19:02:26
Zach
You were trying. I know this was.
00:19:03:23 – 00:19:04:24
Kevin
This was Spencer’s.
00:19:05:03 – 00:19:08:11
Zach
Pathetic attempt to reach younger people.
00:19:08:11 – 00:19:08:25
Spencer
Oh, man.
00:19:08:27 – 00:19:18:28
Zach
That’s pretty soon as you. We’re talking about Snapchat and Tik-tok. I mean, he’s not that interested me. He’s got no idea. Yeah, well, we’ll just. I mean, luckily, we can edit this entire section out of this, and no.
00:19:18:28 – 00:19:19:26
Spencer
One will ever know.
00:19:20:01 – 00:19:21:03
Zach
What I think that.
00:19:23:04 – 00:19:55:28
Zach
So I think that the a local I was actually going to talk about being an elected official because I think that it’s I’m living in a very interesting environment where nearly I can’t it is to have a constituent tell me how they hate the extremes they they they’re losing faith on the national level. They actually it’s interesting the re-invest in the local level, which is to me a very interesting tale of what happens when you develop a personal relationship with somebody or to Kevin’s earlier point about leadership and compromise.
00:19:55:28 – 00:20:13:17
Zach
And because, you know, if there’s only a couple of you cast in votes and you see them at the grocery store, it’s a very different experience than when you’re you’re going on Fox News or CNN or whatever, and you get to say whatever bombast makes you feel good and you get some extra mentions online. But I don’t know.
00:20:13:17 – 00:20:36:27
Zach
What’s interesting is that people tell me this, but then I don’t know that they really act that way. I mean, meaning that the incentives for an elected official right now in my space are you get rewarded more for expediency. So, for example, you get rewarded for filling a pothole than giving the space to find a way to fund the entire road.
00:20:36:27 – 00:20:59:22
Zach
So there’s no incentive for any kind of long term policy planning at all. And to you’re not rewarded for just sort of steering the ship down what I think anybody would consider a reasonable or, well, representative path, because the way that you get noticed is by taking a position that’s on top of a position that’s to a pretty far extreme.
00:20:59:22 – 00:21:30:09
Zach
So what I think would have been when I first got elected 11 years ago or something, that no one would have really stepped out and did. Now, I’m finding are really common within my space where people are taking pretty large, extreme positions, even if they don’t actually agree with it. I mean, it’s just sort of as a starting point and seeing where it sticks and you get it, you know, you get the L.A. Times that cover your position or The San Francisco Chronicle or The Washington Post, and that’s the win.
00:21:30:10 – 00:21:56:19
Zach
Right. And but to make this even finer point, though, that’s how you get a lot. That’s how you get the Democratic or Republican Party support in order to become a statewide officeholder. That’s how you get a national profile. And so even if your values are aligned on sort of the right way and politically the way that you gain the political power in this current structure is very difficult.
00:21:56:19 – 00:22:20:00
Zach
Spencer I mean, you actually have to take positions that I think make it harder and harder to govern. And my sense is that when when one side and what we’re seeing and playing out of the house, how does that impact then the side that still wants to govern because the incentives are aligned to just counteract that by any means necessary.
00:22:20:12 – 00:22:40:26
Zach
And I would argue that that actually benefits the Republican side more by playing into that sort of trench warfare, because you should stand up for what you believe in, you should draw the lines. But then if you play the same game, but I think that that’s what’s the challenge. Look, the last four years have been the largest number of retirements of of elected officials across the country.
00:22:40:26 – 00:23:06:09
Zach
I mean, Covert had a big part to do with it. And, you know, people protesting outside of people’s houses over vaccines and stuff. But I think it’s also the just the way that there’s interactions and expectations from community members and their elected officials today. And if you’re growing up in that environment, basically the Bronx and Brooklyn of of politics across the country, like where you’re in this, everything is a fight and you’re trying to differentiate on the fight.
00:23:06:21 – 00:23:30:10
Zach
I don’t know how that plays for us long term because but this is what I’m experiencing. I see it, I see it. But what’s fascinating is the disconnect between the constituents saying they don’t want that, but then rewarding it at the ballot box. Right. And that’s something I don’t know how to solve. But that but, you know, Kevin, to me, I was thinking about what you’re saying about about how the Republicans are playing it.
00:23:30:10 – 00:23:35:05
Zach
And I’m thinking, well, even at the local level, I’m seeing this even though somebody would look in the mirror and say, I’m not like that.
00:23:35:26 – 00:24:04:05
Kevin
So what is the what is the what is the path forward? Because it sounds right now I’m hearing a lot of doom and gloom. You know, Republicans happen to have the the majority in the House right now, but right now the country doesn’t have a speaker. And we need we obviously have a lot of big things that we need to get done.
00:24:04:26 – 00:24:15:03
Kevin
And I’m just curious to know your thoughts on as an elected official and experiencing what you’re experiencing at the at the local level. How do you think we we move forward?
00:24:15:03 – 00:24:40:06
Zach
I think there are three things that would that can and would have to change in order to fundamentally shift this. One is the media ecosystem is designed and rewarded right now in a way of pure self-selection bias. And if I if I don’t want to ever experience anything other than somebody that agrees with me, I can do that right now.
00:24:40:23 – 00:25:06:13
Zach
Right. So I think that there I was hoping that the Dominion lost. I was hoping that there would be some challenges to the current ecosystem that would require us to have a commonality of understanding, because right now, Kevin, we’re not operating on a national side on a common set of facts, and that actually really matters. I mean, you could have two people at the same press conference and the coverage is like astonishingly different.
00:25:06:27 – 00:25:35:03
Zach
But I think that the the way forward is coming to some common set of fact. You can disagree on the approach from the facts, but if we’re not even having the same baseline, I think that that’s number one. Number two, I think that there needs to be better recruitment of real people into local elected offices because they are the see, first off, they make the most I mean, we focus on the House and we focus on the presidency.
00:25:35:03 – 00:25:58:21
Zach
But I got to tell you, a lot more of your lives. Decisions are made by city councils, mayors, boards of supervisors, governors, school board members, etc.. Right. We’re the barrier to the election is significantly lower. And then a number of those folks go to federal office. Right. And we have what we have now are a lot of federal folks that have never served in any office at all.
00:25:58:22 – 00:26:25:25
Zach
But they were able to get on local TV over some extreme issues. If you look right, a historic low of numbers of people at the federal level that served in a local office. And I think that there is a real value in having that grocery store encounter that I’m referencing. But what I’m hearing and I didn’t announce that I’m not running for a fourth term actually in my seat and in conversations with folks that that would be potentially good for the seat.
00:26:26:07 – 00:26:46:08
Zach
I mean, there are people that are running that would be good for the seat. But they said that there was no way I would get involved in that that world. I mean, because we’re they don’t want to go through what they see me go through or people are protesting outside your house. They don’t want to be a part of a national narrative where everything’s polarized and negative, even if it’s not as much at the local level.
00:26:46:23 – 00:27:24:26
Zach
And so I think we have to really foster an environment where people want to run for local offices and can see that it really is an honorable profession. As my former colleague Ryan Coonerty say, which is that that you this is public service is still an honorable goal. I mean, I don’t think that that’s the case. And the third thing precept of that is that when it comes to education, I mean, I’ve got an eight year old I mean, we all there’s a lot of kids associated with this podcast and, you know, they don’t even I mean, literally, they do not teach anything that would have any sort of understanding about local government or civics
00:27:24:26 – 00:27:48:27
Zach
in a traditional way. I mean, he has I mean, he kind of knows what I do. I mean, there’s literally like, he lives with me and he still doesn’t know what it is I do. I mean, so there there has to be it’s easy to other something if you have no education or information about it. Right. And so there has to be a re-investment of an understanding of the civic process, how to vote.
00:27:49:09 – 00:28:14:20
Zach
You know, what your local government does, what the federal government does, and not just one quarter or semester and fourth grade, not just one, you know where they’re studying. And here in California, California history and government, not just one semester or quarter in high school where you study a US government that doesn’t cut it right. So I would say the media, the local recruitment and the educational thing, I mean, these are huge, I understand.
00:28:14:20 – 00:28:19:24
Zach
But I think that the erosion of those three things, Governor, are pretty significant of change in order to change this around.
00:28:21:15 – 00:28:57:17
Kevin
I’m really sorry to hear that you’re not running again. That was I did not know that. I think what’s concerning for me is the type of elected officials who are starting to leave on both sides. And when you have folks who are less centrist on the Republican side and on a Democratic side, just folks who are just who are hearts are in it and they’re doing it for the right reasons, begin to leave those positions of public service.
00:28:57:17 – 00:29:23:00
Kevin
It is it is heartbreaking because we need those folks in positions of power because they’re doing it for the right reasons. And this some of the best people to get things done, best people to get things done more, more amenable to compromise. A compromise is not a bad thing. I wish I can get everything that I want. I can’t you know, I have the I have my own seven year old to worry about here, Right.
00:29:23:00 – 00:29:44:09
Kevin
Like he has he has thoughts and ideas. My two year old has more thoughts than him. You know, my wife has thoughts about what I’m doing right now. You know, everyone has thoughts. But the way that you get things done at a you know, you talk about local level, you talk about community, but at a super local level with the my own home, I think compromises is needed.
00:29:44:09 – 00:30:06:09
Kevin
And when you have those folks who aren’t willing to folks who are willing to compromise no longer serving in public service, I think that’s just a it’s a very dangerous thing. And the other institutions that you were talking about as far as like how we how we push forward, it is it is going to take a whole heck of a lot for those things to change.
00:30:06:09 – 00:30:13:15
Kevin
So anyways, anyways, but Spencer, I think you’ve written a couple of books on this. Like I’m curious to know like what your, what your thoughts are as well.
00:30:13:29 – 00:30:32:06
Spencer
Well, I’ve managed to produce one book and the second one is taking a little longer because I think it’s going to end up being four or five books in one if I don’t watch it. But yeah, I mean, what we’re talking about here is kind of at the heart of a lot of what I’m talking about because, you know, the first book is about patriots.
00:30:32:06 – 00:30:54:27
Spencer
The two nations as people might, you know, get a hint about from my my background here is about the idea that there have been two entirely different pictures of what the nation is from the founding and, you know, that led to the Civil war. It led to Trumpism. It’s and it’s not just racism. It’s easy to just say, well, these people are just white nationalists.
00:30:54:27 – 00:31:25:24
Spencer
It’s certainly a lot of it. You know, I sometimes think if someone said, you know, look, if you have two choices, is this a white nationalist cake with some frosting on it or some other kind of cake? It’s a white nationalist cake, basically. But that’s only that’s not the whole story. The whole story is bigger than that. And and there are people who support Trump, who I think by now you can’t support Trump without being a racist and a bigot of all different kinds, even through choosing to be ignorant.
00:31:27:02 – 00:31:55:05
Spencer
But there are people who got into supporting Trump who who were sure they were not racists or bigots and who thought what they were responding to was a moral call, a call to a moral crusade. And you still hear people now, as deluded as I think they are, who make these arguments for these insane ideas, in my view, like, you know, Christian nationalism and white Christian nationalism or whatever it is, which they’ve convinced themselves are moral crusades.
00:31:55:26 – 00:32:20:12
Spencer
And then the moral crusade gives you the excuse to indulge in all kinds of horribly immoral behavior as it happens. But the important point there is that there is a hunger for morality, and people will often choose the really degraded imitation of morality, like somebody like Trump, who seems so obviously a fraud if they’re offered nothing in return.
00:32:20:15 – 00:32:41:05
Spencer
It’s kind of a variation of what Bill Clinton famously said, where people will choose strong and wrong over weak and right. And I think actually, if you picture that as a stack of options, the top of that stack is strong and right. Not necessarily that you are absolutely factually right, that you can prove you’re correct, which you can’t.
00:32:41:21 – 00:33:02:12
Spencer
But strong in standing for what you honestly believe in your heart is right is that’s the strongest position to be in. It’s hard for people to believe that, especially for cynics to believe that. But that’s the strength of an Obama, for example, He actually believed in what he was doing then. Below that is strong and wrong, and that’s where the current Republican Party basically is operating all the time.
00:33:03:07 – 00:33:44:01
Spencer
And then below that is weak and right. And unfortunately, that’s where Democrats have too often functions. They focus on getting policy right, but they come across as weak with the exceptions we’ve been discussing, like Hakeem Jeffries, for example. And then, you know, the bottom of that four part stack is weak and wrong. But I think what we need to recognize is that Democrats and liberals in general since about the sixties, in my view, when they all started sending their kids to college, have become very meritocratic and very intellectual and have lost sight of the fact that ultimately it’s a moral enterprise here and it does not mean you have to imitate the other side and
00:33:44:01 – 00:34:05:11
Spencer
say, well, that’s we we need to be a Christian nation or some other kind of moral code has to rule everybody. No, but there has to be a heart and a soul in it. And even if we get to teaching civics, which I wholeheartedly agree with, we have to go back to making that central to an education and education was, you know, at the founding was supposed to be to prepare us to be free citizens.
00:34:05:11 – 00:34:29:00
Spencer
And that got thrown out the window early on. I agree with that. But you have to also take it from the point of view of not just this is technically how it all works, which is the way it’s usually taught now in which is extremely boring to most people. You have to talk to them about why this matters and why it’s exciting and exciting and inspiring mission that we’re all on together, you know?
00:34:29:00 – 00:34:52:11
Spencer
So and I sort of typically long answer for me, but I actually think that this is the stuff that gets skated over that’s crucially important. And I think we share that experience like when I first met Kevin, actually, it was because Zach suggested to me I should join the Obama campaign and gave me the introductions that made that happen.
00:34:52:11 – 00:35:11:05
Spencer
And then I eventually met you, Kevin. And when I went to join that campaign on the plane on the way to Philadelphia, at that point, I was thinking I was so impressed with Obama. I was all in on him. But I was thinking, Oh God, once I get inside, please don’t let me find out that this is all bull, please.
00:35:11:14 – 00:35:33:14
Spencer
And it wasn’t you know, it obviously wasn’t. And I know it’s not for you guys, you know, we both have seen enough that we could be cynics if we wanted to be. And sometimes I know all three of us, it felt like maybe despair is the only answer. But I think we all appreciate that ultimately, you have to stand for something.
00:35:33:14 – 00:35:46:22
Spencer
And and when you do, it’s not just that you sleep well at night, but it actually turns out to be the smart thing to do. But again, I want to open that up is do you think I’m just this is all just rainbows and unicorns or do you how do you how do you look at it, Kev.
00:35:48:00 – 00:36:26:14
Kevin
These are there’s some irony to the to public service being boring. The irony is I can’t my son my son the other day we were driving drive him to an event and he says, I wanted to I want to listen to the news. And I really couldn’t have him listen to the news because the language is so colorful and, you know, the different you know, especially if if, if, you know, Trump is being quoted in any kind of way, it’s like I can’t have him listen.
00:36:26:14 – 00:36:45:16
Kevin
And then in a, you know, separate from politics, just like everything else that I see in the news today, it is it is an R-rated it’s an R-rated thing to watch these days. I can’t have my my seven year old watch it, which is which is unfortunate because he’s asking for it. And I was surprised. I was shocked.
00:36:45:16 – 00:37:00:03
Kevin
I was like, yeah, well, bring it on. And I put it on for a little bit. I was like, Yeah, we we’ve got to find something else. So I’ve had to do my own research and find kids news and like happy news. And when they break it down and there’s, you know, appropriate language, appropriate language for young people.
00:37:00:03 – 00:37:30:00
Kevin
But I think it’s in addition to that being ironic, I think it’s also diabolical that and, you know, I don’t want it to be Democrat or Republican right now, but it’s from what I’m seeing state to state, we’re seeing local governments attack education. It’s like they want to keep people down. They don’t want them to know the history of this country.
00:37:30:11 – 00:38:08:29
Kevin
And when you understand your own history, you know what to look out for. You know how to prevent it. You have an opportunity to learn from it and you know, I actually think that education, though, it was a form of freedom, which it is, it’s also an opportunity to level the playing field. And when you have folks who were attacking that and taking away those rights and then not emphasizing the the the the need to educate people about how our system works, I think, you know, I was having a conversation with a friend yesterday and news alert popped up.
00:38:08:29 – 00:38:30:08
Kevin
You know, president you know you know former President Trump is is a is is is a name is being floated around as a potential next. And I had to think about it for a second. I was like, wait, he’s not even in elected office. He’s not in Congress. How could you possibly be speaker of the House? And I have to remember, I was like, oh, wait, they could just vote for someone to be speaker of the House.
00:38:31:16 – 00:38:55:13
Kevin
And that is sort of like the confluence of everything that’s wrong with that party right now. Right. They didn’t he didn’t create because of his you know, and and again, like, I don’t want it to be like, you know, these zingers and it’s not about attacking his character, but it’s about telling it how it is. Right. I think it’s his own ego who feels that he should be the who Trump feels like he should be the only one.
00:38:56:22 – 00:39:28:23
Kevin
Right. And whether he’s doing it to get out of legal trouble or whatever it is, like he didn’t create the space for someone else. He lost fair and square. He didn’t create the space for someone else to step in and lead. And he’s looming over the entire party, folks who are right minded or, you know, at least centrist on that on on the Republican side, don’t even they can’t breathe and do what do what they think is the right thing to do because they are worried about folks showing up at their house.
00:39:29:06 – 00:39:48:06
Kevin
They are worried about people sending threats to their families. And one of the cardinal rules, you know, not too long ago was to leave families out of it. If you have an issue with me in my policy, let’s debate it and let’s talk about it and then let’s let the people vote and see where it goes. That’s not what’s happening now.
00:39:48:06 – 00:40:18:06
Kevin
And it’s and I think it’s really it’s really concerning and it’s beyond concerning. And I’m it’s my it’s my hope that, you know, through having the right kind of leadership, I think you mentioned Hakeem Jeffries as someone who’s doing a phenomenal job. I think through the right leadership, the hope is that the country or people at the local level and again is like, you know, way more than than I would on this.
00:40:19:00 – 00:40:44:05
Kevin
I think the hope is that there are enough people who are looking at what’s happening and not just voting for what their echo chamber is saying, but seeing that, you know, this entire party is not like the Republican Party is not representing us well, like we are. We are the like America is the example. United States is the example.
00:40:44:05 – 00:41:03:22
Kevin
It’s supposed to be the example. And what we’re seeing now, which is it’s just not. And I think that the hope is and I think this yeah, I’m thinking this out as I’m talking Kazak, you brought up some really strong points about just, you know, people are more concerned about the potholes on the street, which I think that’s also really important.
00:41:04:15 – 00:41:27:18
Kevin
But I think we need to do both at the same time. And I think where there are opportunities for elected officials to demonstrate their commitment to at the local level and say what they’re going to do to, you know, fix communities, but then also on a national level, making sure that, you know, the bigger policies are also getting executed and having a voting base that’s going to support that.
00:41:27:18 – 00:41:28:24
Kevin
I think it’s going to be very key.
00:41:29:16 – 00:41:54:01
Zach
Well, I’ll finish on on this point, because I think it’s something that that can be explored even in future discussions, that there was a recent Georgetown Battleground poll that I actually sent over to Spencer about it talked about about approximately nine in ten Republicans and almost six in ten Democrats feel that their values are under attack in the country.
00:41:54:01 – 00:42:27:09
Zach
And what I thought was fascinating about it was the fact that that is the that’s the operating environment by which we’re being asked to govern, okay, at the local, state and national level. So if in my case, we’ll say seven or whatever out of ten people, we have a I mean, I have a Democratic majority and we run as a nonpartisan I mean, so we’re not affiliated with a party when we run for the offices of my level in the state of California.
00:42:28:00 – 00:42:53:22
Zach
But if if about two thirds or more of the people that I’m talking to are starting from a framework where they think that government and society are attacking their values. Right. I think that that is a a space that we at least need to acknowledge. So when we talk about you’re talking about education and books and, you know, trying to keep people, you know, without the information.
00:42:53:22 – 00:43:15:24
Zach
But I mean, on the counter to that is that somebody saying, well, my values are under attack, and when your values are under attack, you’re willing to take whatever extreme measures they are to reset those values. And it’s not defending the actions by any stretch. But I think that I need to accept that that is what’s happening and understand it in order to reach somebody, to get them to understand from a communications standpoint and from a governing standpoint.
00:43:16:13 – 00:43:40:13
Zach
And what I meant earlier by saying the challenge with that is that you’re rewarded as an elected right now for expediency, for filling a pothole versus taking, say, a year to get the funding to fix the road, because you would be told that you didn’t do the job. That disconnect values are under attack. That requires an immediate, emotional, visceral response.
00:43:40:13 – 00:44:11:27
Zach
Right. And yet addressing it takes a longitudinal relationship building common set of value discussion that’s more challenging in the current space. I want to find a way to do that bridge, not just in my role, but also in the national work we do. But I think that that’s a continued conversation we should have about how do you effectively also even communicate in that space if about seven or ten people.
00:44:12:01 – 00:44:20:15
Zach
So we’re talking both sides here, right. Feel that their their values are fundamentally under attack and their values are diametrically opposed, Right.
00:44:21:21 – 00:44:48:27
Spencer
Yeah. You know, I think that that is one of those problems where you’re not just both sides. And yet to say this happens on the left as well as the right, I think currently it’s obviously far more dangerous and even violent on the right. But that attitude is very popular here on the left as well, growingly popular in recent decades that my personal values and how I personally feel about something is the ultimate authority.
00:44:49:05 – 00:45:36:04
Spencer
And I sometimes worry that really the the trajectory we’re on now leads to a nation of 350 million tyrants, each of them ruling an empire of one. And on the left, the wave that comes up. Even, you know, in academia, there’s a lot of Syria is theorizing about this. It goes back through postmodernism and critical theory, you know, through Michel Foucault on the postmodern in the postmodern component of that, for example, where the liberal assumption that there is such a thing as a shared public reality, where we agree on what’s basic is factually true, or even that we agree that we use evidence and logic to try to come to an agreement about what’s factually
00:45:36:04 – 00:46:03:19
Spencer
true. And then we respect and debate each other’s opinions. That is, that is rejected by quite a lot of theory that’s become very popular on the left. And, you know, you’ll hear people talking about my personal truth and truth that’s rooted in lived experience. And again, you know, this goes through the philosopher named Emmanuel Levinas and goes back to the late 19th century.
00:46:04:03 – 00:46:49:18
Spencer
There’s a lot of people who seriously believe that this liberal ideal that we can all be different, and yet we agree to meet in a public sphere where we share a commitment to speaking honestly, respecting the power of facts and logic, and resolving our disagreements by debate and negotiation. That’s been obviously abandoned by the MAGA, right? But there is actually a not insignificant part of the left that’s that view as well, and sees sees progress in terms not of negotiation, but of abolishing a corrupt system and starting over.
00:46:49:18 – 00:47:11:26
Spencer
That’s, I think, part of what I’m talking about with the loss of the shared moral vision for the country. And to me that’s the biggest crisis we face. And I think we may be out of time to solve that one. But I, I trust we will be doing this again soon. And I want to thank you both. I think it’s been a great discussion, as it always is.
00:47:11:26 – 00:47:13:24
Spencer
Whenever I talk with either or both of you.
00:47:13:28 – 00:47:18:01
Zach
Or Spencer is an honor to be back in with you and Kevin. I always love being with you.
00:47:18:01 – 00:47:28:12
Kevin
So this is a great discussion. I think that the similar to the country probably needing therapy to work it, work through its issues. I felt like this was pretty therapeutic to to talk through it as well. Always a pleasure.
00:47:28:25 – 00:47:29:16
Spencer
Thank you both.
[…] A Hollow Man Vacates the Chair, a conversation about the fall of Kevin McCarthy and what it means, with Kevin Lewis and Zach […]